Author Topic: The fake problem that cost me a day of my life; Plus, a real problem...  (Read 4481 times)

Offline shawnb

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So...   Please pardon the lengthy whine... 

First, the fake problem...   

I've been experimenting with Guitar Rig 3, I like some of the voices.   My primary sw is SONAR & I have an audio interface (UA-101, a USB device), I've been using the DF GR3 in SONAR and actually not using my RIP.  I started noticing low volume humming & 'stuttering' within GR3 over the last few days, in the clean GR3 voices I was using.  I wondered if GR3 working in standalone mode or via Ableton via the RIP was cleaner & louder than via SONAR, as it was all bundled together, & hopefully designed to work cleanest that way... 

I wanted to try it out; just to see if the RIP/GR3 might get me a cleaner signal... 

Plug in my RIP, it's R.I.P...   Re-install the drivers, it recognized the hardware once.   Then froze.  I could not get my RIP to work.  Hmmm.... What's different?   Well, about a week ago, I got a Seagate firewire 1.5 TB backup device.   Maybe an issue?   Well, it certainly was.   I tried going into the Seagate tool, & things froze.  On a lark, I powered off the RIP.  The Seagate worked normally.  Powered off the Seagate, my UA-101 driver froze, but the RIP worked fine. 

It was like playing a shell game...  I could only get one to work at a time.   But prior to installing the Seagate drive, I could get both the UA-101 & the RIP to work (though I could only select one ASIO device in SONAR...  See previous ASIO post...)

Ahhhh.... I like to think this is what I do to relax...  Rough, stressful day at work, I wanted to lay down some tracks for my friend's album to unwind...  Drink a glass of wine... 

So...  Anyway...   I power off & unplug the Seagate.  Back to problem 1 - why is GR3 noisy?   I try Ableton (RIP & UA-101), SONAR (RIP & UA-101), & Standalone GR3 (RIP & UA-101), flipping drivers off & on each step along the way, as I can't get them both to work at the same time.  A # of times I freeze everything up & have to reboot.  A # of those times, it wont' reboot, I have to do a hard power-down. 

I get rid of some crackling in GR3 by increasing the ASIO latency. 

But the stutterring humming problems still exist in all variants. 

I read in other online forums that the old Pentium Ds (like I have) don't properly multi thread, and GR3 sometimes has a problem with that.   I turn multi threading off & on in SONAR.  I adjust buffer sizes.  Set "smaller buffer size", set it back... 

At one point, things start to sound cleaner to me playing GR3 in Ableton (via RIP).   

Then, I realized, I wasn't using one of the same GR3 presets, to get a fair comparison...  I'd been using a few fairly clean voices when I noticed the dusturbing stuttering hum.   

I go back to 021 Jazz Amp | 003 Jazzy Chorus in GR3.   Noise comes back...   The horror sets in...

After a process of elimination, I realize, that the few voices I had been using all had a common GR3 component "Jazz Amp".   Turn that &*&^* off, and the problem goes away....   

GR3 Crackling was in fact resolved, across the board, by increasing the ASIO "Audio Buffer Size" a tad. 

The stutterring hum was, in fact, a feature of the GR3 "Jazz Amp" component...   

I.E., IT WAS NEVER TRULY A PROBLEM....

(I hope you enjoyed the comic relief provided by the modern home studio version of the Keystone Cops, above...)

However, the real problem...   

Clearly, installing the Seagate has had an adverse effect on my home setup here.  My USB UA-101 & the firewire RIP worked OK side by side.   And now all 3 are clearly stepping on each other. 

A quick google indicates lots of folks have external firewire drive issues with their audio devices.  Lots of Mac issues.   None of the posts I read had any suggestion other than "make sure you have current drivers".   I do...   

Finally... my question...   

Does anybody know of a way to resolve firewire/usb conflicts?   Is there a way to update their properties somewhere so they won't step on each other (like in the early IRQ days)?   Or do I essentially need to wait for Seagate to update their driver?   

Thanx.   

Enough of the whine, back to my glass of wine....

Shawn
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:00:17 AM by shawnb »
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
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Offline MCK

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GR3 has tendencies to throw in a few curve balls. I observed few months ago that my Dark Fire was not tuning accurately according to the GR3 tuner. Turned out Dark Fire was accurate and GR3 was not due to my high CPU loading. When CPU load was lowered all went back to normal but it did take a while for me to figure out.
 
Another one was how you can't map a Midi pedal to GR3 actions unless an audio device is active. In other words, you can only do this when RIP is connected and alive. I was trying to connect my midi pedal and program it without the guitar & rip complicating my workspace and this was simply not working. Finally the issue was well understood and resolved but till not I don't understand the logic.
 
So in short, expect the unexpected when it comes to GR3.
Dark Fire Initial Check Out  - Q/A
http://www.futureguitarnow.com/forum/index.php?topic=14.0

Caig DeOxit - Buy now before you need it !!!
http://www.futureguitarnow.com/forum/index.php?topic=454.0

Offline Elantric

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I use a Macbook Pro.

I have very good luck recording audio to the internal drive  - which I upgraded to an internal 2 1/2"  Western Digital 500GB SATA drive with 32MB buffer.

When working with Editing Video, I use an external 2TB ESATA Drive, connected to my Macbook Pro using an ESATA adapter using the 2007 Macbook Pro's Expresscard 34 expansion port.


i swap out Audio interfaces as needed. I rotate between the following Interfaces on my MacBook Pro:

* RIP (firewire) - for recording  / processing Hex Guitar from Dark Fire

* VG-99 (USB) - for recording  / processing Roland GK Guitars ( GK-3A, GK-2A, RMC, Ghost equipped guitars) and  from Dark Fire ( with adapter)

* Line6 Toneport DI Gold (USB) - for recording  / processing Guitars, and acts as dongle to allow PodFarm and Gearbox Gold AU/ VST plugins to function with all other interfaces.

* Digidesign Mbox  - To run Protools LE

* Mark of the Unicorn 828MK3 (firewire)- for recording  / processing  / mixing  / interfacing with my Akai DPS24

* Phonic Helix 18 (firewire) - for recording  live bands.

I only use one at a time to process audio. Typically work off Sony MDR-7506 Headphones and a custom headphone amp, driven directly off each audio interface when tracking.
I use a patch bay too, to route my active near field monitors to the current audio interface as needed.
 I dual boot using Apple BootCamp.

Under Apple OSX 10.5.7 I use Logic, Protools, Live, Garageband, Mainstage, Final Cut Pro.

Under WinXP SP2 I use Reaper Audio, Live, Sony Vegas.
 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 08:15:19 AM by Elantric »
. . . the future ain’t what it used to be . . .

Offline simont

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Finally... my question...   

Does anybody know of a way to resolve firewire/usb conflicts?   Is there a way to update their properties somewhere so they won't step on each other (like in the early IRQ days)?   Or do I essentially need to wait for Seagate to update their driver?   

Thanx.   

Enough of the whine, back to my glass of wine....

Shawn

Shawn,
post your spec and how you are connecting/powering all three devices

Offline Elantric

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actually the Seagate does not rely on a proprietary driver - it uses the built in Firewire support built into your OS.

What is  your OS?

What is your Computer Make/Model?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 11:34:32 AM by Elantric »
. . . the future ain’t what it used to be . . .

Offline wootzy

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Hi Shawnb, not sure if it's applicable to you but I experianced some performance issue on my first gen Macbook pro when I upgraded from 10.5.6 to 10.5.7. The issue's that I was experiencing where related to bad performance and insane heat generation whish eventually resulted in random system shutdowns. I was lucky  that I just reinstalled my system and kept a partition with 10.5.6 and was able to compare the performance heat result between the 2 versions. This morning I performed a quick google on "os X 10.5.7 +heat problem" and came across the following article whish confirmed my suspision about the 10.5.7 patch: http://www.zeldman.com/2009/06/06/apple-os-x-1057-overheats-some-macs/

Offline shawnb

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  -  My OS is Windows XP SP3 (Media Center Edition) - this is basically XP SP3 with some additional media software (MovieMaker, Sonic, Media Center, muvee)
  -  2 GB RAM
  -  Computer is an HP Pavillion m7570n
  -  The Seagate is a FreeAgent Xtreme 1.5TB

The Roland & Seagate work together OK; and the Roland and the RIP worked together OK prior to installing the Seagate drive.  But to get the RIP working now I need to power off the Seagate, & the Roland kinda disappears as a device once the RIP is active.  Very odd.   

I opened a ticket with Seagate yesterday, no response yet.   It's clearly in their court.   

In the meanwhile, if there's something I can do to resolve the conflicts, in device mgr (or in the BIOS??) I'd appreciate it.   Haven't found anything in device mgr that would allow me to segregate any resources (memory? IRQ?) amongst firewire &/or USB.  Haven't looked in the BIOS yet.   Kinda feels like I have to wait for new Seagate software to have 'em all working at the same time.   In the meanwhile, I have to power off the Seagate to use the RIP.  Not tragic, but annoying...   

The good news in all of this is that I didn't really detect any latency or quality difference between using the UA-101 vs. the RIP, or using SONAR vs. Ableton.   

Of course, without the RIP, I don't get the individual string outs via hex mode.  And without Ableton, I don't get their DF templates, which had great instructional benefit showing what you can do & how; I believe I could now emulate them via RIP/SONAR. 

Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
 - Fripp

Offline Elantric

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FWIW - Since you run WinXP SP3 - then RIP Version 5.2 is the desired  best version for you.

http://www2.gibson.com/getdoc/d6df2b96-a33d-4a2f-8f1f-e968595ebd87/SetupEchoFireWire_5-2.aspx

. . . the future ain’t what it used to be . . .

Offline shawnb

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Everything I read, including on the Echo site, seems to indicate 5.2.1 has a bunch of improvements over 5.2, including improved firewire performance, better exception handling (fewer crashes), more friendly names in SONAR.   

It's true I don't need the Vista improvements...

But I find it hard to believe 5.2 to 5.2.1 would be a step backwards?
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
 - Fripp

Offline Elantric

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try 5.2 first - then report back
. . . the future ain’t what it used to be . . .

Offline simont

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yeah 5.2.1 is the one.
5.2 excludes XP SP2 users.

Have you a firewire card in addition to the Firewire on your motherboard?
..or a hub?

Offline shawnb

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I will definitely try the 5.2.   Come to think of it, the 'rewritten firewire' stuff could mean Echo introduced an issue with their 5.2.1 rewrite.

No USB/firewire hubs.   The PC itself came with tons of slots, 6 USB slots & 2 firewire slots.   Though I suspect the 4USB/1FW ports in the rear of the PC are "closer to" the motherboard... The remaining 2USB/1FW ports are in the front.  For the RIP, I've been using the front FW slot, given its occasional usage.  The backup device is using the rear FW slot, given its daily usage. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
 - Fripp

Offline Elantric

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Quote
5.2 excludes XP SP2 users.




The RIP 5.2 console and Driver will not even install on WinXp SP2 , you must specifically have WinXP with Service Pack 3 (SP3) 
 

WinXP SP3 includes updated Firewire support which is mandatory for the RIP 5.2 Console, as this supports the multiclient ASIO driver, which is designed to use RIP with other Echo Audio Audiofire interfaces.


However, since most WinXP folks still use SP2, and do not need the Multiclient ASIO Driver, Echo created RIP 5.2.1, to allow the RIP to be used by WinXP folks still running older Service Pack 2 (SP2)


My advice, since you are running WinXP SP3 - try RIP 5.2 first!

If you still have problems, then get a SIIG PCIe Firewire card that uses a TI chipset.
http://www.provantage.com/siig-nn-e20012-s2~7SIFW010.htm


I believe your HP m7570n motherboard uses a VIA Firewire chipset - and these have known problems.

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=ae&docname=c00705316


Open WinXP Control panel, System, Hardware, Device Manager

It will report your 1394A controller type.


All PC/Mac USB & Firewire connections to specific Audio / Video gear require that specific criteria is met.

Echo Audio and Gibson are not unique - all other vendors of Firewire Interfaces deal with identical problem components and OS versions that do not play well together with their drivers and hardware.

Remember this - the RIP employs a  Texas Instrument  iceLynx-Micro IEEE1394-200CES controller which feeds digital audio over Firewire 1394A to either a PC or a Mac.

It will work best when connected to another TI Firewire chipset on your motherboard, PCI card (desktop), or Expresscard 34 (notebook).


More incite is here:


http://www.echoaudio.com/
http://www.echoaudio.com/forum/

http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/Common_Problems/PC.php

http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/Quick_Tips.php

http://forums.m-audio.com/showthread.php?t=4801

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=f5abf4bd59b5420f9adbbb6709080d77


« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:12:41 AM by Elantric »
. . . the future ain’t what it used to be . . .

Offline simont

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Not to labor the point as it is worth trying 5.2 in case a bug has been introduced, but,
5.2.1 is the latest driver and XP SP3 is strongly recommended.It is the only 5.x driver with a .readme and the only 5.x driver that echo publish.




 

Offline shawnb

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Ok, so I deinstalled 5.2.1, rebooted for good measure, re-installed 5.2 and tried it. 

Same problem.  The RIP isn't recognized when connected. 

The Seagate drive, however, came with both a USB cable as well as a Firewire cable.  I disconnected the Seagate, & deinstalled 5.2. 

I simply reconnected the Seagate, this time using the USB cable.  It woke up, and surprisingly, all software worked out OK.  No problems whatsoever; I was surprised it didn't want me to reinstall software given it went from Firewire to USB2.0.   I confirmed the UA-101 AND the Seagate worked fine.   

I then reinstalled 5.2.1 - and - drumroll please....   Everything works! 

In SONAR, in Ableton, and in GR3 Standalone mode, I can choose which of the two ASIO devices I want. 

Problem solved, by using the Seagate's USB port instead of it's Firewire port.   

I'm sticking with the 5.2.1, in part because Echo's doc'd benefits seemed worth it (stability, performance).   Plus, in part, as Simont points out, because Echo actually pulled the 5.2 driver from its site. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
 - Fripp